THEATRE IS A POWERFUL TOOL FOR SOCIAL TRANSFORMATION – Shabana Azmi

This article was published in: Reflections II
Content type: Interview

Shabana Azmi, a recipient of five National Film Awards, the Padma Shri  and the Padma Bhushan—top national awards of India—is well known  for her defining roles in parallel cinema since the 1970s. Azmi gave a  masterclass at the Nepal International Theatre Festival 2022, organised by  Mandala Theatre Nepal. In an interview with Dinesh Kafle and Suraj  Subedi, Azmi spoke about the transformative possibilities of theatre and  the role of artists, intellectuals and corporates in sustaining them. 

How has Kathmandu been treating you? 

Kathmandu has always treated me very well. I’ve come here several  times. The first time was in 1974 while shooting for a film called Ishk  Ishk Ishk by Dev Anand. The film made me fall in love with Kathmandu.  Ishq ho gaya mere ko, Kathmandu se. I also came here when I did a play  called Tumhari Amrita with Farooq Sheikh many years ago. I even came  here as a SAARC Goodwill Ambassador for HIV/AIDS when I was a  member of Parliament. 

Having visited Nepal many times, how do you see Nepali theatre  evolving? 

It’s quite extraordinary what is happening in Nepali theatre, where the  community is getting together to develop scripts and plays and build  theatres. Look at Mandala Theatre—it’s unbelievable how they have got  together, pulled their resources and said, “We’ll build a theatre on our  own”. And I believe there is a sort of eruption of small theatres that the  people are making. It is really admirable. The play I watched yesterday  [Katha Kasturi, based on a story by Nayan Raj Pandey, directed by Deeya  Maskey and performed by students of Actors’ Studio] was excellent. I  could not believe that it was students who had just done a three-month  course and come up with an ambitious play. The fact that the students  could muster that ambition up was outstanding. 

Speaking of small theatre groups emerging in Nepal, what is the  scenario in India? And how do we benefit by letting such groups  flourish? 

Well, in India also, small groups and spaces are coming up—not just for  theatre but also for stand-up comedy, poetry, readings, and so on. These  places allow the exchange of independent thought, which is very  encouraging. In Mumbai, for instance, there is a beautiful cultural space  called G5A Foundation, which organised a 20-day festival. It is just a  black box theatre, but they curate high-quality content. And what they  are doing is quite remarkable: They are doing this in the surroundings of  a fishing village, including the community. Instead of saying, “We’ll  come from outside and tell you what culture is”, they create an immersive  experience with the fishing community—their relation with the sea, the  food, and so on. That is not just token integration but actual integration.

What is happening in the larger theatrical scene apart from such  small-scale activities by independent theatre groups? 

Things are tough because the theatres cannot sustain themselves  independently. The ticket rates are so high that a family would rather see  a movie or watch what is available on OTT platforms. That is the  problem we have yet to be able to solve. We need support and funding  from big corporate houses who realise that theatre is a vital instrument  for social change and that it can shape cultures and thoughts. I’ve done  plays for the National Theatre and the Singapore Repertory Theatre,  where you find actors rehearsing from 9 am to 6 pm because they are  getting enough money not to have to do another job. In our part of the  world, you are doing another job because that sustains you, and then in  the evening, you come and do theatre. It can only lead to a professional  quality theatre if artists get paid better. Artists can only get paid better if  the audience is willing to pay. So it’s a vicious cycle. 

Shouldn’t the state sponsor theatres? 

I’m apprehensive about the state sponsoring theatre, for, at some point,  the state can start interfering and deciding your content and take away  your autonomy. For creative artists to have the space to express  themselves freely is very important. Theatres cannot be dependent only  on the state. The state can give some subsidies, but ultimately, the  corporations will have to come forward. Also, the big challenge for  theatre is that theatre will have to establish itself as separate from cinema.  The kind of experience you have in theatre should be different from the  cinematic experience. Only that can entice audiences to start appreciating  theatre. So, the challenges are many.

How can theatre survive in an age when new media and social media  have come up with new platforms and disruptions? 

First, it should be a proper theatre and not any comedy put together or  any slipshod act in the name of theatre. Theatre has its own language,  which is rarely explored. Theatre borrows heavily from clever dialogues  and all that. But what about the form of theatre that can allow you to  imagine things beyond the object presented on the stage, say, a man  standing on the stage as a tree? We must explore the medium more to  allow the willing suspension of disbelief. That can encourage audiences  to think that something different is being offered there. But still, the  question of finance remains, and it must come from big corporate  houses that have their corporate social responsibility. They must realise  that theatre is an essential medium of personality development for  creating young adults who can take on the world. If the corporate houses  start to look at theatre the same way they look at education and sports,  then there is more hope. 

In Nepal today, many theatre artists use theatre as a stepping stone to  enter the film industry because there is more money in the latter. As  someone with a parallel career in both industries, what do you think  is the best way to balance the two? 

For an actor, the best combination is to do theatre and film together. Of  course, it is necessary to earn a decent living, for you can’t live on the  street. But once you have established yourself in the film industry, you  need to return to theatre because you give a lift to the theatre itself.  Hollywood actor Ralph Fiennes returns to England once in a while and  does theatre for only 250 pounds a week. He does this because he wants  to be enriched by the theatre experience. If stars like Naseeruddin Shah  are doing this in our part of the world, we can also do it. 

You come from a family of writer-activists, as your parents, Kaifi and  Shaukat Azmi, were active with the Indian People’s Theatre  Association and the Progressive Writers’ Association. You have also  negotiated art and politics together. How do you see South Asian  writers, artists and intellectuals taking on the roles of social  changemakers? 

I grew up in an atmosphere where my parents believed that art should  be used as an instrument for social change. And it comes very naturally to me. Some people think of art as only a medium for entertainment,  and I don’t have an issue with them. What I am asking for is a redefinition  of entertainment. Why does entertainment have to be so crude? Why  does it have to have abusive language? If we can redefine entertainment,  you could have a bouquet. The audiences should be able to pick and  choose which they want. You can’t say only my way of thinking is the  correct one. Also, respect for theatre, art and film should be taught at  school. They should learn about it as part of personality development.  For, you cannot have somebody who has never been exposed to good  theatre and good cinema to understand these forms suddenly when  they are twenty. 

You are known for your portrayal of distinct female characters across  space and time. How do you see the portrayal of female characters  evolving? 

There has been a definite change in Indian cinema over time. If you look  at the 1960s, there were films like Main Chup Rahungi, with Meena  Kumari in the lead role. At the time, remaining silent was considered a  virtue of women. Then we entered into the completely crazy moments  in the 1990s, where films like Jakhmi Aurat took a stereotypical approach  to women. It was left to the parallel cinema to understand and present  women with all their complexities without stereotyping them. Nowadays,  there is a transformation in mainstream cinema, where you find big  stars who don’t want to be seen as bimbos but as women who have an  identity separate from that of hero-chasing. Due to this, we are getting  many women-oriented roles. Ultimately, it depends on how the audience  is willing to see it, for the filmmaker is not here to change the world but  rather to do speculative business like everyone else. So, if the audience  shows interest in emancipated women, this will make a difference.  Everybody who feels passionately has a responsibility. My father wrote a  poem named ‘Aurat’ 70 years back, asking women to stand up and march  shoulder to shoulder with him. I grew up taking this call for equality for  granted. Only when I was 19 did I realise that what I took for granted  was an exception. So, I started working with women. Today, I can see  women moving beyond liabilities and becoming an individuals with an  identity. Most of the time, we feel that the problem is too big, so we  hesitate to make small efforts. But we should think differently; each of us  has the power to be the catalyst for change.

You have been involved with theatre, films, activism, politics and  even the United Nations. Which agency would you believe is best  suited to change society? 

Each one of these, I would say. If I am an artist, I can’t say, “Alright, I’ll  stop being an artist and become a person”. In whatever capacity you can  contribute to change, you must do it. 

What is your advice for Nepali theatre practitioners? 

More power to them! The movement they are leading under given  circumstances is praiseworthy. I am very proud of them. 

 

This interview was originally published in The Kathmandu Post.

Author picture

Shabana Azmi, a recipient of five National Film Awards, the Padma Shri  and the Padma Bhushan—top national awards of India—is well known  for her defining roles in parallel cinema since the 1970s. Azmi gave a  masterclass at the Nepal International Theatre Festival 2022, organised by  Mandala Theatre Nepal.

 

Author picture

Shabana Azmi, a recipient of five National Film Awards, the Padma Shri  and the Padma Bhushan—top national awards of India—is well known  for her defining roles in parallel cinema since the 1970s. Azmi gave a  masterclass at the Nepal International Theatre Festival 2022, organised by  Mandala Theatre Nepal.

 

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